Former public protector, Thuli Madonsela. File picture: Masi Losi Former public protector, Thuli Madonsela. File picture: Masi Losi
Johannesburg - The State Capture report not only brings shady dealings to light but it also makes for riveting reading, especially the gritty repartee between the former public protector and the president's attorney, Michael Hulley.
Thuli Madonsela lost her cool a number of times as her frustration grew due to Hulley’s insistence on speaking on behalf of President Jacob Zuma. This was after she repeatedly told him that “the president has a right to legal assistance, not legal representation”.
Hulley didn’t seem to understand this, so Madonsela just had to keep putting him in his place. The dialogue, which is captured in a compelling 90-page annexure accompanying the report, shows that though Madonsela tried to be patient, Hulley’s interruptions and interjections had her quite irked.
Michael Hulley, the president's attorney
The tone of the dialogue began changing when Hulley asked, early on in the sitting, why Madonsela was “rushing” the proceedings.
“Well, maybe we should just cut to the chase and find out why there is a rush? With respect let’s find out why it is that you are rushing it out of your own (indistinct – speaking simultaneously)?” he said.
Madonsela began her response by saying: “I’m rushing it because I'm the Public Protector until the 14th of October. I’m rushing it because I am supposed to have finished this matter within 30 days. I’m rushing it because I have institutional memory relating this case…
“She goes on to list more reasons, to which Hulley says: “I’m sure that personalities bring with them their own style and their own manner of doing things.” Madonsela does not fall into the trap. “Sir, can we not deal with that?”
Later, the back-and-forth grows icier.
Hulley says: “Can I just carry on making the submissions that I had started making?”
“I thought you had concluded, Sir?” Madonsela replies, to which Hulley said: “No, I hadn’t, I was interrupted.”
Soon the confrontation was nearing its peak.
An annoyed Madonsela said in response to Hulley’s interjection: “You have made that representation. I have now made a ruling that we are going to proceed, but we will focus on the things that the President is going to answer. I’m sorry sir, I cannot be bullied by you...”
Hulley then appears to retreat: “I beg your pardon, if that is the impression, I apologise.”
The final phrase that shut Hulley up for the rest of the sitting was a fist on the table from Madonsela, stating she had had enough.”Please can you not stop... can you stop talking for the president? Mister Hulley, I’m forbidding you from speaking. I’m not giving you an opportunity. I’m asking Mister President to address me.”
From then on, Zuma was forced to answer.
The Star